Yaaaay for being back. Step 6 garnered the most views to date since our initial post, charting a record 300+ views in the first day. It’s obvious you all missed us!
We missed you too! Because of the deep interest you all have shown, we are currently looking at more topics and issues to cover once our list of Ten Ways is done. If you have ideas, send them over! We can always be reached at mark.truman@gmail.com and james.bronaugh@gmail.com.
On that note, we had only a few posts this time commenting on Step 6. We aren’t sure why you all were so quiet, but we still had a few gems. Here’s our favorite comment for Step 6.
In Canada, 3 months of no report puts an officer in the black, and makes for an automatic election – not a VoNC, but the mandate to simply run the election for that position. The person currently in is welcome to re-run, but everyone in the Domain will know that the reason the election is being run is a failure to report.As well, we do not give Prestige for officer positions unless a report is filed that month – this includes our National officers (and in fact, the Nationals do not get Prestige if they are late with a report, unless they have given prior notice, or have a definate emergency).
We also got rid of MC Loans a few years ago – our ST’s ability to create NPC’s is based on their ST level, not the member’s personal MC level. This seems to have leveled out the playing field, and settled the “being ST just to get more MC” problem. – Indrani
Wow. The more and more we talk about Canada’s Cam, the more we think it must be a nice place to play! It’s probably cold though. We don’t like the cold. 
Regardless, Indrani has highlighted a few ways that they are way ahead of the US Camarilla…and probably a few other affiliates. We aren’t sure what’s keeping their good ideas from getting implemented, but it needs to change!
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It isn’t often that we get a full-throated rebuttal of our ideas. Decker provided such on this step and it’s a worthwhile read. Here are a few clarifications and additions based on his well-thought criticism.
Why Promptness Matters from STs
Over all this not a bad idea. Infact, it’s more or less already in place, with the exception of the automatic VoNC. Reporting is important, but for Storytellers, there are more important factors. Is the game they run one that is enjoyable to their players? Does it contribute to the Chronicle as a whole? I can easily forgive a Storyteller for missing a report or two. Coordinators are a different matter because prestige is awarded solely in reports.
Obviously we can all understand failing to file a report. While they are simple, easy, and fairly short, real life can get in the way of getting your report in exactly on time. However, STs who fail to file a report are usually only a step or two away from failing to do other parts of their job as well.
Think of it as a variant on the broken window theory. When we are on the lookout for STs who don’t file reports, we catch the STs who are starting to slip on the job overall. Those same STs will eventually stop taking care of the approvals database, fail to write plots for game, and perhaps even stop showing up.
In addition, many STs don’t actually care about the prestige they are earning. Taking it away isn’t a punishment for most of them. If not filing a report can get you kicked out of office, you make filing the report (and other parts of your job) a priority.
What We Want From Attendance Records
This information if compiled would honestly tell us very little useful information in regards to the Camarilla, other than patterns and tracking holistic game attendance which
I agree could be useful on a global/national level but does not provide a great deal of useful information on lower levels.Each region has it’s own flavor, preferences, and staff. Even within that however, domains have their own flavor, preferences, and staff.
I do not mean to be offensive but you seem to base much of this idea off how a single area does things, as in my Region, it has been quite some time since it was requested in any ST reports that attendance be reported. – Decker
We don’t truly need attendance data for each game to be evaluated, measured, and acted upon. Obviously, growing 20% a year may not be the standard each game should be held to. Sometimes, domains are quite old by Cam standards and may not see that kind of growth…because they’ve got an established player base that isn’t all that interested in recruitment.
But nationally we need to get some data that tells us how our game is faring. Attendance is the best indicator of that. In addition, it would help us divide up our time at conventions and featured games to make sure that we are addressing the needs of each region, nation, or venue.
Yes, we do base our posts on what we see in our region, but that’s not a valid excuse for failing to implement changes elsewhere. If you aren’t currently tracking attendance in your region, it would take a single email from the RST to drastically change that situation.
Metrics? Yes, we say!
McDonalds sells the most hamburgers in the world. They consistantly make a good profit and have exceptional market share and brand identity. This does not mean that they have the best hamburgers in the world.
Metrics work for a field where success is determined by the financial status of the company.
In the Camarilla, Metrics are of limited use, unless we want to define our success solely by our attendance numbers.
As an additional note, I personally have frequently observed in companies that use Metrics, those who are held responsible for the results, attempting to skew the results as they know that Metrics often are over relied on and used to determine the quality of their performance, regardless of the actual results.
The result of this is rather then focusing on how to create a successful company in terms of customer and employee satisfaction as well as finacial viablity, management focuses on achieving standards usually set by those who have not ever performed the job. Often, different groups of management are held responsible for different aspects of Metrics and without exception they will focus solely on achieving their Metric, often at the expense of other fields. – Decker
Decker paints a picture of our idea gone horribly awry. No one here at Save the Cam wants anyone to lose their elected position based solely on how many people fill out a survey or attend a game. But we do want something we can measure, something we can hold up and say “We’ve made some progress this year!”
Does anyone have any idea what will do that? Or are we stuck stumbling along without a clear picture of where we have been or where we would like to go?
Tell us what you all think!
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And while we wait for your comments, Save the Cam will return with “Offer Storyteller Training That Works” soon!
This is not related to metrics, but i think that the cam should outlaw proxy fighting, and kill boxes.
Why do you think those should be outlawed?
How would you have combat without proxies or killboxes? Or are you suggesting that the Cam should move to a non-lethal game of political posturing?
If I want posturing that really does nothing, I can go to the S&M ball and get all the inactive posturing and social hyper-cattyness I want there, instead of paying for a Cam membership.
Well, it just bothers me is all. No real reason, just venting.
Understandable. I’ve seen a lot of people who didn’t like killboxes because they were badly-run or took hours, but from my experience at SCARE 2007, I’m not sure these hours-long killboxes even exist. And I signed up for the PVE plot, so I should’ve been in one for at least a few minutes. Instead, all I got was a clan meeting which never happened, a covenant meeting that bored the hell out of me, and endless hours of political posturing.
So yeah… not trying to make a personal attack, but I’ve seen a lot of people who want to remove killboxes and proxy combat, but not one has had an idea of how to keep PVE play alive for those of us who don’t want to end up going up against the December Carnivales and Vryzillas.
the reason to get rid of “killboxes” is just the word.
Seriously, it just annoys me and gives me Grimtooth’s traps flashbacks.
the current system is so stacked to prevent one hit kills that a defender can reasonably expect to be utterly obliterated by a relativly little amount of outnumbering, due to the damage caps ensuring that numbers are in almost all ways ALWAYS superior to skill.
the ability of only 4 people to attack any given target only makes it worse. We’re lucky the High MC requiem monsters arn’t dicks because with the current rules no one in the game COULD stop them. they are unable to do enough damage in one turn. (venue wipe almost happened when a visiting killing machine had their child die that night, and failed the frenzy test)
Proxy wouldn’t be that big of a deal if travel, esepcially again in reqium, wsn’t monsterously easy.
ther4e are many characters that play one week in athens, the next at thier local game in the midwest and the next week in the southeast on a monthly basis.
I can see it for mage, what with the ability to *bampH* about, but the insantly free travel just really kills some of the other venues.
then there’s the old ‘you were mind controlled into loosing your character by st fiat, but your appeal was denied because the other people there wanted to setup a killbox anyway’ thing.
Question. Would changing the rules to something statistically similar to tabletop help with the lethality of said killboxes?
The problem of one-shot kills is because cammies are attached to their characters. Overly so, I’d say, but then again I have issues of not being able to get attached enough. And getting potentially one-shotted by an elder isn’t something that cammies like. Or worse, a pure social elder getting one-shotted by a pure combat neonate.
And yes, I’m fully familiar with elders being dicks. Any Changeling Fairest built with MC 6 or above is capable of ending any combat unless one very specific ogre contract is in effect. Been there, had it happen. Ditto with mind-affecting stuff. Enough Vainglory, Dominate, or Mind magic and you can literally rewrite a character, potentially into something their player doesn’t want to play. And where is the protection against that in the addendum?
Honestly, I think this is starting to just reflect back on some of the earlier suggestions about fixing game mechanics. If we fix mechanics we fix killboxes.
Agreed. Killboxes are silly, but they result from the earlier described mechanical problems. Limit the XP and we stop from everyone from having every power in the book…
i also find it disturbing that the number of wyrd and bp 4-6 characters running around is just accpeted.
It’s like the OWoD was only populated with 9th to 7th gen characters.
so yes, fixing the mechanics may well in fact allieveate alot of the cam’s issues.
y’know, aside from lighters and fenceposts being global approval.
just as a sick aside, per the ammendum you can create an npc with mc 10 (350 xp) plus 20 per month after 1-5-05
so that’s an additional 860 xp.
that’s 1210xp per my reconing.
Well, its not like the background doesn’t partially support it. The Blood (which is reviled by a surprising number of cammies because it “pulls a mechanic that requires BP 8+ to make draws to stay awake”) says that a vampire’s BP isn’t necessarily connected to age, and that one can strengthen it, or keep it from strengthening.
In Awakening, as far as I can tell, you’re supposed to have uber Gnosis anyway. The way Legacies are treated suggests that a Gnosis of 7 should be the average and even provides a system (which I’m not sure is used in the Cam) for giving special XP just to raise it.
There’s a reason why NPCs are created to be so freakishly Uber. Its because any PVE plot has to be able to survive or overwhelm the likes of December Carnivale, Vraizilla, Killing Joke, and Starfall before any of it becomes available to lower-powered characters. As a result, PVE plot in Requiem usually involves multiple BP 6+ vampires. The result is often the death of weaker PCs, which causes people to hate PVE plot.
But on the other hand, would you rather be with the December Carnivales, Killing Jokes, and Starfalls; or be forced to plot against them and risk total character obliteration?
As for custom mechanics- I recently was doing IC check in, and was told I had to accept a blatantely OPed custom mechanic because Global had approved it. To be honest, I wanted to draw a line thru it on the sheet and say “not here, and not tonight.” The global review of custom mechanics has FAILED.
First, I’m not sure how Killing Joke made it on that list.
Second, you are spot on. The crazy power levels make STs plan for either plot that folds like a wet paper towel or uber-villains. It’s a bad situation and another reason we should reduce the amount of XP.
And who told you that you had to approve that mechanic?
The guy himself did, because Global had approved it. And I’m only an AVST, so nixing a custom mechanic is kinda out of my league, isn’t it? And the DST and some people from Regional were watching, and none of them would support me.
The last thing I want is Global coming down and suspending me because I refused to allow what I considered an OPed custom mechanic in the game, when they had already approved it and it had survived the review.
Killing Joke made my list because he seems to be the kind of nightmare that makes a PVE ST cringe, and I also couldn’t think of a massively OPed Forsaken character.
He should be corrected. Global approved it for the chronicle, but not for your game. Next time make your case to the lead ST for the event. Approval does not equal “Approval at all events.”
Let’s say I have a power that let’s me do lethal equal to my powerstat in one round. I’m MC 12. I will have a very high powerstat. It’s possible that the power simply isn’t appropriate for a game where the average MC is 3. The ST for that game has the right to deny the use of certain approvals for that one game.
You can’t desanction it, but you can keep if from being used at that game.
Actually, Killing Joke isn’t that bad. My packmate that does 10+ Lethal a round is.
That needs to be put in the addendum.
In your VSS, you have the right to deny, or as i have it in mine, Line Item Veto anything you don’t find acceptable.
I have not done it yet, but I would line item Iced Out Bitchkilla in a second.
There isn’t a need for the story teller being able to say no to any power or character coming to play in your venue in the addendum. This is actually listed in the MH:
“Determine whether visiting characters are suitable for participation within the venue, based on the guidelines in the approved venue style sheet, Camarilla rules, and genre policies. “
I agree, but it just makes it doubly safe for Line Item Veto.
You’d line out Iced Out Bitchkilla? That power is not bad at all really – they can reduce penalties by up to their Celerity. Hair Trigger is far worse, and that’s in the main Carthians book.
Oh, i have gave it a good read now, and wouldnt. I am very liberal generally. I think i was mad the day i posted that. I have been reading more and more rules lately, and there is some soft stinky cheese in the books, much more than made by players.
And you know what. I kinda like the cheese.
Noticed something on the WW boards. There’s a small but highly vocal and highly obnoxious minority that seems to think the entire Prestige system needs to be done away with.
Which I personally think is an extremely bad idea. But unlike this blog, the WW boards are halfway official.
Hey. anyone have any thoughts on secondary characters?
also, where are the rules for secondary characters? one of the players in my games is planning on declaring himself priscus of both the invictus (his primary) and the crone (his other primary).
I’m under the impression that one of the rules of second (or more) characters in the same venue is that they need to avoid each other like the plauge.
maybe i’m just having an attack of common sense as opposed to offical rules again.
You get one Primary in each venue, plus one main in any venue of your choice. Secondary characters are unlimited, but are made at MC 1.
Its somewhere in the addendum, but I dunno quite where. Or at least it used to be.
2nd Primary: 1 total per whatever
2ndary: how many ever you want, MC 1 only.
Yes, they do have to avoid each other like the plague.
Australia an almost identical system to Canada for reports (as was quoted below). It works well.
“In Canada, 3 months of no report puts an officer in the black, and makes for an automatic election – not a VoNC, but the mandate to simply run the election for that position. The person currently in is welcome to re-run, but everyone in the Domain will know that the reason the election is being run is a failure to report.
As well, we do not give Prestige for officer positions unless a report is filed that month – this includes our National officers (and in fact, the Nationals do not get Prestige if they are late with a report, unless they have given prior notice, or have a definate emergency).
We also got rid of MC Loans a few years ago – our ST’s ability to create NPC’s is based on their ST level, not the member’s personal MC level. This seems to have leveled out the playing field, and settled the “being ST just to get more MC” problem. – Indrani “
Better late than never:
1. Bring back the OwoD. It’s the WW fan club, not the NWOD fan club. Some of us liked the old systems better.
2. Put the power at the grassroots level. your CST is the most important person in the game and he alone should have absolute control of your character.
3. Make WW butt out of the organization. Unless they want to provide a level of support that has been lacking in the 6 years since they took over. Our dues should stay the property of the club and not the company behind it. Why did it take losing the UK for the wiki to be hosted on a camarilla owned server? What is the camarilla doing with our membership fees?
4. Use club funds for club purposes. The game belongs to the players, not WW. Why should they get a second bite at the apple? They already charge us for the books, why should we have to pay them to play?
5. Demand transparancy. Club officers, including the camarilla council, the club director, and all Master, Global, or National officers should be required to publish any and all club communications except where the country’s privacy laws would mandate otherwise, or where it is necessary to protect a person from false accusation.
6. Drop the power scales: limit populations of powerful characters reguardless of MC’s to enforce a logical population of elders.
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